[Domesteading 00161] Re: Domesteading Digest, Vol 27, Issue 9
d.union
d.union at verizon.net
Sat Apr 7 19:34:37 PDT 2007
Hi
We have a dome, monteray double dome,
about 23 years old. Roofing is a concern with any dome
house IMO. In our case mostly because it wasn't done
right originally, and of course the first re-do was worse,
which just before we bought the house. We bought the
house about 8 years ago and had to redo the main roof
shortly after we bought it despite the fact that the roofing
was only 2 years old.
But a decent roof job goes a long way...
Has anyone done a bathroom ceiling vent in an
'upstairs', that is at the dome roof level, bathroom?
The dome is a 25' dome and the first floor is about
10 feet with the flooring, so that at the peak of the
ceiling over the bathroom floor it's nearly 15' up...
pretty far to suck out the shower steam from.
Right near the shower the ceiling is of course
only at about the 10' level, but we're right 'in'
the main dome wall and there is a slant at
that point.
So what are some good solutions for a
ceiling vent to vent the moisture out of the room
when the shower is in use?
I need a solution that not only lets me vent,
but is weather tight and hornet tight also.
I've also discovered that any of those cheapo
fans that only suck about 100 CFM or so are
basically useless, or nearly so. Some of the
ones that suck more need a fairly large vent
and / or expect to be inside floor rafters, that
is they need at least 8" of space to live in.
FYI those roof vent fans at the top of a dome
work well for helping with excess heat in the
summer but despite screens, it seems hornets
always find a way to use that to get in. And
nest. And they are very very very loud.
----- Original Message -----
From: domesteading-request at sculptors.com
To: domesteading at sculptors.com
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 10:06 AM
Subject: Domesteading Digest, Vol 27, Issue 9
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Today's Topics:
1. [Domesteading 00154] Re: Discussion reinitiates (Rob Savoye)
2. [Domesteading 00155] Re: Discussion reinitiates (Robert Vance)
3. [Domesteading 00156] Re: Discussion reinitiates (Robert Vance)
4. [Domesteading 00157] Re: Discussion reinitiates (John E. Johnson)
5. [Domesteading 00158] Re: Discussion reinitiates (Vinay Gupta)
6. [Domesteading 00159] Re: Discussion reinitiates (Sal Cerda)
7. [Domesteading 00160] Re: Discussion reinitiates (Vinay Gupta)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 15:20:52 -0600
From: Rob Savoye <rob at welcomehome.org>
Subject: [Domesteading 00154] Re: Discussion reinitiates
To: "A forum for the discussion of aspects of independent,
off-the-grid living" <domesteading at sculptors.com>
Message-ID: <4616B9B4.4070502 at welcomehome.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250
J & D Goldman wrote:
> Was the Pacfic dome one of those tent-like fiberglass pole supported
> structures, or something meant to be more permanent? Just wondered
> what it was that failed.
It was one of the fiberglass ones, as we move around every few months.
Our entire setup has been very mobile.
- rob -
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 17:53:33 -0400
From: "Robert Vance" <naptimeatv at msn.com>
Subject: [Domesteading 00155] Re: Discussion reinitiates
To: "A forum for the discussion of aspects of independent,
off-the-grid living" <domesteading at sculptors.com>
Message-ID: <BAY104-DAV3000DF269390682C0F442CC640 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Get geodesics "restarted"... I didn't realize that they had stopped!!
BobV!
----- Original Message -----
From: Vinay Gupta<mailto:hexayurt at gmail.com>
To: A forum for the discussion of aspects of independent,off-the-grid living<mailto:domesteading at sculptors.com>
On Apr 3, 2007, at 3:00 AM, J & D Goldman wrote:
> The tools are cheaper than they ever
> were (compount miters sell for peanuts now), and the materials are
> improving, with more biodegradeable structural choices appearing
> daily. I'm still impressed with honeycomb panels for low weight, high
> strength and superior insulation.
We've been working with Hexacomb cardboard very successfully for the
super low priced hexayurts - which are basically simplified
geodesics. We've got a lot of interest from the US DOD - the Marine
Corps has a project going to get the technology written up as a Field
Manual, among other things.
Open Source and no patents has really enabled us to get these things
spread. If you haven't examined the designs, they are very simple.
Cut 6 4x8 panels in half on the diagonals, assemble into six 8x8
isosceles triangles, and use whole 4x8 panels for the walls. Whole
thing goes together with an adhesive backed composite from 3M (i.e.
6" wide 8959 tape, $12 a roll, 600 lb break.)
It's that simple, and it works. You can even make them folding.
http://files.howtolivewiki.com/folding_hexayurt/<http://files.howtolivewiki.com/folding_hexayurt/>
warner_folding_hexayurt_clip.mp4
http://youtube.com/results?search_query=hexayurt&search=Search<http://youtube.com/results?search_query=hexayurt&search=Search> (more
assembly videos)
I think this is the way to get geodesics restarted.
Vinay
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 18:02:01 -0400
From: "Robert Vance" <naptimeatv at msn.com>
Subject: [Domesteading 00156] Re: Discussion reinitiates
To: "A forum for the discussion of aspects of independent,
off-the-grid living" <domesteading at sculptors.com>
Message-ID: <BAY104-DAV147126EFD9AD28CB364C5ECC640 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250"
Fantastic news John! I am so glad to hear that building inspectors are finally "turning the corner" and getting accurate construction advice and information from "those that know"!
Glad to hear that your son returned safely - I did a tour "+" in Vietnam myself and can feel empathy with him.
BobV!
http://homepage.gallaudet.edu/janet.vance<http://homepage.gallaudet.edu/janet.vance>
----- Original Message -----
From: John E. Johnson<mailto:newageco at dbtech.net>
To: 'A forum for the discussion of aspects of independent,off-the-grid living'<mailto:domesteading at sculptors.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 11:28 AM
Subject: [Domesteading 00149] Re: Discussion reinitiates
Won't be leaving the continent that's for sure...
As Dan G and others who know us already know, we are big on helping solve
the problems that give domes a bad rap. Our clients will verify that after
we're through.
The do-it-yourself aspect of the dome industry is great for a glib
salesman with a new wrinkle on how to build their version of the latest,
greatest dome kit, but doesn't help the real people who just want to take
advantage of the inherent advantages of building a dome in the first place.
Roofing is still a big issue. Lots of new ways to cover a dome that still
leave the ventilation issue unsolved. Lots of well intentioned and non dome
experienced roofers still screwing the clients. My oldest son is back from
Iraq and running the roofing/repair crew and we are making some real
believers out of those who have had nothing but problems with their roofs
since they built. Not rocket science...just some careful thought and a
vented cupola does the trick on most domes. He's tired of being shot at and
after walking away from one crash decided he didn't like that line of work
as much as he once did. A Kiowa D is just not designed as an inner city
gunship. He sure left the Army with some interesting stories. 3 combat tours
will do that for you. We're so thankful to have him home in one piece!
We currently have several domes on the coast going up. Lots of activity
around these with many adopting the "wait and see" attitude, but very keen
on the idea in general. We had 12 domes actually hit by Katrina and nobody
suffered more than impact damage from somebody else's house coming apart,
and some broken windows and shingle damage. No structural damage at all. One
was in the process of being decked when it was hit. No damage. Many
inspectors are actually pushing domes now....that's a wonder!
Paul Durand is working with us directly now and it sure helps to have this
guy in your corner. He's set several "ostrich postured" inspectors on their
heels when they come up with some BS objections when we apply for permits.
He's a smart man with a great sense of humor. Just don't come up with a
hair brained objection to a dome if you are an inspector. He absolutely
destroys their flawed logic when it is used as an objection.
Financing is getting easier for those clients who tell their bankers we're
on the project. The days of the do-it-yourself domes are just about over
without some experienced help looking over your shoulder.
Concrete domes are making some waves based on the whole idea that concrete
MUST be better, but the reality is different from the perception for most
residential dome builders. (I'm sure I'll get busted for that).
I just call em like I repair em folks!
We've got a tall building looking at a renovation that includes a super
ellipsoid dome on the roof. I'll post some results as we close in on a
design. Got to talk to our boy down under though!
A dome with airbags!? Why not? Good to hear from you Dan. We're still
kicking.
John E. Johnson
newagedomeconstruction.com
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 18:33:19 -0500
From: "John E. Johnson" <newageco at dbtech.net>
Subject: [Domesteading 00157] Re: Discussion reinitiates
To: "'A forum for the discussion of aspects of independent,
off-the-grid living'" <domesteading at sculptors.com>
Message-ID: <200704062332.l36NWrHK019065 at dbtsvr1.dbtech.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250"
We have a project in design phase that will use either PVC or conduit(less
likely...lightning), frame and a surplus high altitude balloon for a temp
cover while renovating a NASA project. Stay tuned!
John E. Johnson
newagedomeconstruction.com
-----Original Message-----
From: domesteading-bounces at sculptors.com
[mailto:domesteading-bounces at sculptors.com] On Behalf Of Rob Savoye
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 4:21 PM
To: A forum for the discussion of aspects of independent,off-the-grid living
Subject: [Domesteading 00154] Re: Discussion reinitiates
J & D Goldman wrote:
> Was the Pacfic dome one of those tent-like fiberglass pole supported
> structures, or something meant to be more permanent? Just wondered
> what it was that failed.
It was one of the fiberglass ones, as we move around every few months.
Our entire setup has been very mobile.
- rob -
--
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3:33 PM
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 10:58:08 +0000
From: Vinay Gupta <hexayurt at gmail.com>
Subject: [Domesteading 00158] Re: Discussion reinitiates
To: "A forum for the discussion of aspects of independent,
off-the-grid living" <domesteading at sculptors.com>
Message-ID: <6BFB456C-3C28-4185-B44A-F03818E4E7C2 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
On Apr 6, 2007, at 9:53 PM, Robert Vance wrote:
> Get geodesics "restarted"... I didn't realize that they had stopped!!
Yeah, they totally stalled out man... right around when Lloyd Khan
came out with "Smart, not Wise" and so on... the industry has been
muddling along in the margins, not taking over the world.
Part of that, I think, is slavish adherence to the hemisphere. With
modern 3D design tools and CAD/CAM cutting equipment, it should be
pretty easy to design dome structures which fit on square lots a lot
better, which have steeper walls and flatter ceilings and so on. Yes,
there's a trade off in strength as you move further from the
spherical line, but when you're overspecified by a factor of 10 or
100, you can trade off some strength for other functional factors.
On roofing - how do you find Wil Fidroeff's technology - cement board
covered in an elastomer from AFM (makers of SafeCoat paints)? I used
to work with Wil - his T-beam geometry is extremely clever, giving
very fast construction times, and the six way double compound miter
joint is nothing short of genius...
Vinay
--
Vinay Gupta - Designer, Hexayurt Project - an excellent public domain
refugee shelter system
Gizmo Project VOIP: 775-743-1851 (usually works!) Cell:
Iceland (+354) 869-4605
http://howtolivewiki.com/hexayurt - old http://appropedia.org/
Hexayurt_Project - new
Skype/Gizmo/Gtalk: hexayurt I have a proof which unfortunately this
signature is too short
>
> BobV!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Vinay Gupta<mailto:hexayurt at gmail.com>
> To: A forum for the discussion of aspects of independent,off-the-
> grid living<mailto:domesteading at sculptors.com>
> On Apr 3, 2007, at 3:00 AM, J & D Goldman wrote:
>
>> The tools are cheaper than they ever
>> were (compount miters sell for peanuts now), and the materials are
>> improving, with more biodegradeable structural choices appearing
>> daily. I'm still impressed with honeycomb panels for low weight,
>> high
>> strength and superior insulation.
>
> We've been working with Hexacomb cardboard very successfully for the
> super low priced hexayurts - which are basically simplified
> geodesics. We've got a lot of interest from the US DOD - the Marine
> Corps has a project going to get the technology written up as a
> Field
> Manual, among other things.
>
> Open Source and no patents has really enabled us to get these things
> spread. If you haven't examined the designs, they are very simple.
> Cut 6 4x8 panels in half on the diagonals, assemble into six 8x8
> isosceles triangles, and use whole 4x8 panels for the walls. Whole
> thing goes together with an adhesive backed composite from 3M (i.e.
> 6" wide 8959 tape, $12 a roll, 600 lb break.)
>
> It's that simple, and it works. You can even make them folding.
>
> http://files.howtolivewiki.com/folding_hexayurt/<http://
> files.howtolivewiki.com/folding_hexayurt/>
> warner_folding_hexayurt_clip.mp4
>
> http://youtube.com/results?
> search_query=hexayurt&search=Search<http://youtube.com/results?
> search_query=hexayurt&search=Search> (more
> assembly videos)
>
> I think this is the way to get geodesics restarted.
>
> Vinay
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 05:31:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sal Cerda <sal.cerda at rocketmail.com>
Subject: [Domesteading 00159] Re: Discussion reinitiates
To: "A forum for the discussion of aspects of independent,
off-the-grid living" <domesteading at sculptors.com>
Message-ID: <397661.65057.qm at web56810.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
OK. I'll bite - what is a six way double mitre joint. Is there a link you can forward? The t-beam I read about on the Faze Change site.
Sal
Vinay Gupta <hexayurt at gmail.com> wrote:
On Apr 6, 2007, at 9:53 PM, Robert Vance wrote:
> Get geodesics "restarted"... I didn't realize that they had stopped!!
Yeah, they totally stalled out man... right around when Lloyd Khan
came out with "Smart, not Wise" and so on... the industry has been
muddling along in the margins, not taking over the world.
Part of that, I think, is slavish adherence to the hemisphere. With
modern 3D design tools and CAD/CAM cutting equipment, it should be
pretty easy to design dome structures which fit on square lots a lot
better, which have steeper walls and flatter ceilings and so on. Yes,
there's a trade off in strength as you move further from the
spherical line, but when you're overspecified by a factor of 10 or
100, you can trade off some strength for other functional factors.
On roofing - how do you find Wil Fidroeff's technology - cement board
covered in an elastomer from AFM (makers of SafeCoat paints)? I used
to work with Wil - his T-beam geometry is extremely clever, giving
very fast construction times, and the six way double compound miter
joint is nothing short of genius...
Vinay
--
Vinay Gupta - Designer, Hexayurt Project - an excellent public domain
refugee shelter system
Gizmo Project VOIP: 775-743-1851 (usually works!) Cell:
Iceland (+354) 869-4605
http://howtolivewiki.com/hexayurt - old http://appropedia.org/
Hexayurt_Project - new
Skype/Gizmo/Gtalk: hexayurt I have a proof which unfortunately this
signature is too short
>
> BobV!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Vinay Gupta
> To: A forum for the discussion of aspects of independent,off-the-
> grid living
> On Apr 3, 2007, at 3:00 AM, J & D Goldman wrote:
>
>> The tools are cheaper than they ever
>> were (compount miters sell for peanuts now), and the materials are
>> improving, with more biodegradeable structural choices appearing
>> daily. I'm still impressed with honeycomb panels for low weight,
>> high
>> strength and superior insulation.
>
> We've been working with Hexacomb cardboard very successfully for the
> super low priced hexayurts - which are basically simplified
> geodesics. We've got a lot of interest from the US DOD - the Marine
> Corps has a project going to get the technology written up as a
> Field
> Manual, among other things.
>
> Open Source and no patents has really enabled us to get these things
> spread. If you haven't examined the designs, they are very simple.
> Cut 6 4x8 panels in half on the diagonals, assemble into six 8x8
> isosceles triangles, and use whole 4x8 panels for the walls. Whole
> thing goes together with an adhesive backed composite from 3M (i.e.
> 6" wide 8959 tape, $12 a roll, 600 lb break.)
>
> It's that simple, and it works. You can even make them folding.
>
> http://files.howtolivewiki.com/folding_hexayurt/
> files.howtolivewiki.com/folding_hexayurt/>
> warner_folding_hexayurt_clip.mp4
>
> http://youtube.com/results?
> search_query=hexayurt&search=Search
> search_query=hexayurt&search=Search> (more
> assembly videos)
>
> I think this is the way to get geodesics restarted.
>
> Vinay
---------------------------------
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with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 13:59:16 +0000
From: Vinay Gupta <hexayurt at gmail.com>
Subject: [Domesteading 00160] Re: Discussion reinitiates
To: "A forum for the discussion of aspects of independent,
off-the-grid living" <domesteading at sculptors.com>
Message-ID: <4DD6F24F-4130-4158-A22E-D1C631C4FCF7 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
You take a T-beam and cut the end in the following way.
Firstly, imagine the beam running horizontally. At the end of the
beam there is a "dihedral angle" - you lop off an inch or half an
inch, so that the inside edge of the beam is shorter than the outside
edge, so that the pieces fit together on the outside of a sphere.
Essentially if you imagine a line from the center of the dome out to
the edge of the dome, you're trimming the end of the beam so that the
end of the beam falls along that line.
Usually that angle is between four and eight degrees.
Then, imagine six beams like that meeting at a node. If the ends are
cut square, there's a weird hexagonal hole in the middle where the
six beams meet.
So you cut each beam in a V shape, so that the beams collectively fit
together a little more tightly - precisely, in fact - giving you a
"hub" which is "no hub" - the beams, because each one had the right
angles cut on it, fit together perfectly at each node, where they are
joined with decking screws and metal tape with holes punched in it
(strapping tape from the packaging industry.)
I don't know whether Wil Fidroeff invented this idea, or whether he
learned it from some older Domemeister, but it's the best dam way of
producing a dome I've ever seen. Throw cement board panels on the
outside, homasote panels inside the T beams, and cotton batt
insulation inbetween and bob's your uncle. The T-beam is (for those
who haven't seen one) a 1x4 nailed to the room-facing side of a 2x6.
The beam looks like an inverted letter T. The interior panels are
made of homasote and painted / fabric covered on the ground, then
when the frame is up, the panels are just dropped into the triangular
holes in the dome frame, where they rest snug against the 1x4 -
instant finish-quality interiors.
**REALLY** sweet system.
The man really does have a system down that deserves much wider use.
Back in the mid 90s I helped to start a company hoping to scale Wil's
technology to national and international markets ("WorldView
LivingSpace") but my co-founder and I underestimated the resources it
would take to get that project off the ground.
Vinay
--
Vinay Gupta - Designer, Hexayurt Project - an excellent public domain
refugee shelter system
Gizmo Project VOIP: 775-743-1851 (usually works!) Cell:
Iceland (+354) 869-4605
http://howtolivewiki.com/hexayurt - old http://appropedia.org/
Hexayurt_Project - new
Skype/Gizmo/Gtalk: hexayurt I have a proof which unfortunately this
signature is too short
On Apr 7, 2007, at 12:31 PM, Sal Cerda wrote:
> OK. I'll bite - what is a six way double mitre joint. Is there a
> link you can forward? The t-beam I read about on the Faze Change
> site.
> Sal
>
> Vinay Gupta <hexayurt at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 6, 2007, at 9:53 PM, Robert Vance wrote:
>
>> Get geodesics "restarted"... I didn't realize that they had stopped!!
>
> Yeah, they totally stalled out man... right around when Lloyd Khan
> came out with "Smart, not Wise" and so on... the industry has been
> muddling along in the margins, not taking over the world.
>
> Part of that, I think, is slavish adherence to the hemisphere. With
> modern 3D design tools and CAD/CAM cutting equipment, it should be
> pretty easy to design dome structures which fit on square lots a lot
> better, which have steeper walls and flatter ceilings and so on. Yes,
> there's a trade off in strength as you move further from the
> spherical line, but when you're overspecified by a factor of 10 or
> 100, you can trade off some strength for other functional factors.
>
> On roofing - how do you find Wil Fidroeff's technology - cement board
> covered in an elastomer from AFM (makers of SafeCoat paints)? I used
> to work with Wil - his T-beam geometry is extremely clever, giving
> very fast construction times, and the six way double compound miter
> joint is nothing short of genius...
>
> Vinay
>
> --
> Vinay Gupta - Designer, Hexayurt Project - an excellent public domain
> refugee shelter system
> Gizmo Project VOIP: 775-743-1851 (usually works!) Cell:
> Iceland (+354) 869-4605
> http://howtolivewiki.com/hexayurt - old http://appropedia.org/
> Hexayurt_Project - new
> Skype/Gizmo/Gtalk: hexayurt I have a proof which unfortunately this
> signature is too short
>
>
>
>
>>
>> BobV!
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Vinay Gupta
>> To: A forum for the discussion of aspects of independent,off-the-
>> grid living
>> On Apr 3, 2007, at 3:00 AM, J & D Goldman wrote:
>>
>>> The tools are cheaper than they ever
>>> were (compount miters sell for peanuts now), and the materials are
>>> improving, with more biodegradeable structural choices appearing
>>> daily. I'm still impressed with honeycomb panels for low weight,
>>> high
>>> strength and superior insulation.
>>
>> We've been working with Hexacomb cardboard very successfully for
>> the
>> super low priced hexayurts - which are basically simplified
>> geodesics. We've got a lot of interest from the US DOD - the Marine
>> Corps has a project going to get the technology written up as a
>> Field
>> Manual, among other things.
>>
>> Open Source and no patents has really enabled us to get these
>> things
>> spread. If you haven't examined the designs, they are very simple.
>> Cut 6 4x8 panels in half on the diagonals, assemble into six 8x8
>> isosceles triangles, and use whole 4x8 panels for the walls. Whole
>> thing goes together with an adhesive backed composite from 3M (i.e.
>> 6" wide 8959 tape, $12 a roll, 600 lb break.)
>>
>> It's that simple, and it works. You can even make them folding.
>>
>> http://files.howtolivewiki.com/folding_hexayurt/
>> files.howtolivewiki.com/folding_hexayurt/>
>> warner_folding_hexayurt_clip.mp4
>>
>> http://youtube.com/results?
>> search_query=hexayurt&search=Search
>> search_query=hexayurt&search=Search> (more
>> assembly videos)
>>
>> I think this is the way to get geodesics restarted.
>>
>> Vinay
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
> with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.
------------------------------
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